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Readers' Comments on "His Holiness the Dalai Lama's Advice Concerning Dolgyal (Shugden)"
Following a long and careful investigation, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has strongly discouraged Tibetan Buddhists from propitiating the fierce spirit known as Dolgyal (Shugden). Although he...
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11 comment(s) found You are on page 1 of 2

Location: USA
Subject: Shugden
Jul 20 2008 07:33 AM

Only Buddha's have a body mandala and no one else, especially a worldly ghost.
The very doctrine that the Dali Lama is famous for teaching is in a commentary to Heart Jewel, the very practice of the Wisdom Buddha. This is simply an example of the eight worldy concerns influencing our discrimination. This is why we are still in samsara. There will be 1000 Buddhas of this fortunate aeon, and we will destroy there doctrine 1000 times. The Buddhas are well aware of this.

Location: Nepal
Subject: Shugden
Jul 13 2008 09:04 AM

Mr Samdong and accomplices shouldn't bother much about such a petty Issues like shugden and intelligen enhancing pills or HBsAg sero-converting pills. They should rather focus their attention towards improving livinng standard, education and health status of exile Tibetans. Samdong is ruling for almost a decade and nothing seems going fine still.

on the other hand, It doesn't make sense these Dogyal people are demonstrating for a want of religious freedom. Who is keeping them from glorifying their ghost?

Leave HH alone please. Go to hell with your shugden or whatever...

Peace prevails

Location: USA
Subject: Urgent appeal to kashag
Jun 01 2008 01:39 PM

Honorable Samdong Rinpoche
The Chief of Kalon
Central Tibetan Administration

Honorable Rinpoche,

This is regarding the Kashag’s recent statements and dealing with Shugden issue. Honorable Rinpoche, who is not aware of the ongoing riot in Tibet. It is indeed a huge revolution against the Chinese regime in two decades. Majority of the Han Chinese witnesses our national flag for the first time in their entire life. It is the right time (if not late) that every Tibetan on this planet should come together and raise voice against the brutal regime in one.

However, Kashag’s recent statements on Shugden cult and its dealing without taking into consideration the negative impact that it is going to generate is something that is totally uncalled for. Although I fully support our exile Govt’s unwavering stand on Shugden issue yet at the same time I very much critique Kashag’s recent dealing with the issue. The Chinese side has already started taking advantage of the paradox which is very much evident during His Holiness’ visit to Europe. At this crucial moment when Tibetans ought to be united for a larger cause, it seems that Kashag is bent upon creating rift among Tibetans. Kashag very easily felt into the Chinese trap by reacting to their cunning gesture especially at this point of time.

May I therefore kindly request honorable Kashag to bypass the Shugden issue at least for some time so that Tibetans are united for a larger cause.

Bod Gyallo!

With best wishes,
Yours faithfully,

Tashi Nyima (pseudo name)


Location: Dharamsala
Subject: Shugden
May 31 2008 11:39 PM

There is no such god or spirit exist if you are really a genuine Buddhist. Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is Buddhist god. Taking refuge in spirit (Shugden) is Bon system and it doesn't help or harm any refuge taker. It is simply a supertitious. If don't believe it do a little research by yourself.
In real world, there is no relgious freedom in our Tibetan community. Use your common sense and logic before critcizing anybody. United we stand and divided we..........

Location: USA
Subject: no need of many sect!
May 31 2008 09:17 PM

I dont think Tibetan buddhism need many sect, Nyingma is the oldest and have everything of the buddha's teaching.
First came Nyingma, then Kagyu, then Sakya and latest the Gelugpa.
The latest Gelugpa has a story of conflict with the Tibetan government in Lhasa long time back.. also a strong involvement in politics which is the main reason why we are having so much problem now in this modern world.
I don't see any reason to have Kagyu, Sakya, Gelug etc... Nyingma alone is good and let us focus more in modern world not with the religion stuff.
It's my opinion. dont take it seriously.


Location: USA
Subject: the other point of view about Dorje Shugden not being a spirit
May 31 2008 08:29 PM

Dorje Shugden practitioners have repeatedly been accused of being spirit worshippers, which is completely untrue. It is also a grave yet nonsensical insult because it implies that they are not pure Buddhist practitioners, whereas in fact they go for refuge to Buddha, Dharma and Sangha like every other Buddhist. They practice Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings on the union of Sutra and Tantra as expounded in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.

For them, Dorje Shugden is not a worldly spirit but a Wisdom Buddha, an emanation of the wisdom of all the Buddhas appearing in a wrathful form to protect practitioners from their own inner enemies of the delusions (i.e. uncontrolled, unpeaceful and negative minds). If other people wish to see him as a spirit, that is their prerogative; but it is very un-Buddhist to slander and persecute those who have never regarded him in that way and who have a close faithful relationship with him as an emanation of a Buddha.

From Geshe Kelsang's letter to the editor in Newsweek, 1997

HH the Dalai Lama claims: "Nobody would pray to Buddha for better business, but they go to Shugden for such favours - and this is where it has become like spirit worship."

This is not true. Many Tibetans pray to other Buddhas such as Tara and make prayers to other Dharma Protectors for success in business and for the removal of obstacles. Why are Shugden practitioners singled out?

Particularly, in the Kadampa tradition we do not pray for worldly attainments such as wealth, reputation, success in business, etc.-- we pray for the welfare of all beings and the attainment of spiritual realizations.

HH the Dalai Lama is also contradicting himself. He previously regarded Dorje Shugden as a Buddha, and composed verses of praise to him that can still be seen today. It is his responsibility to resolve this contradiction.

Authentic spiritual lineage

If the practice of Dorje Shugden is harmful then it follows that Je Phabongkhapa was not an authentic Buddhist master, and if he was not then there is no doubt that his heart disciples, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (the Senior and Junior Tutors of HH the Dalai Lama) were also not authentic. These three Lamas are the most important Gelugpa Lamas of recent times. If these three are not pure Teachers then there is no doubt that the entire practice of the Gelug Tradition is invalid. This is the main issue that needs clarification.

And from some clarification surrounding the present debate regarding the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, 1996-8

The Dalai Lama says: "Dorje Shugden is a worldly spirit. To seek help from such a spirit detracts from the Buddhist way of relying on one's own efforts and can degenerate into a kind of spirit worship."

Geshe Kelsang's reply:

"How can he prove that Dorje Shugden is a worldly spirit? I also asked in these letters for proof that Dorje Shugden is a worldly spirit, but again I have never received any clear reply. The only reason that has been given is that some other Lamas have said this. This is not a valid reason, some other Lamas say Dorje Shugden is the Wisdom Buddha."

A response to the posting by Tseten Samdup: 'Shugden versus pluralism and national unity controversy and clarification', which came from the Department of Information and International Relations, Central Tibetan Administration, Gangchen Kyishong, Dharamsala 176 215, INDIA

Geshe Kelsang: "Concerning whether or not Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being, there can be no final conclusion through negative debate, mixing religion with political aims. This is because from the point of view of many people he is a worldly being, but at the same time from the point of view of many other people he is the Wisdom Buddha. This reasoning applies not only to Dorje Shugden, but to all holy beings.

If someone asked you how to prove that the fifth and fourteenth Dalai Lamas are Buddhas, you would most certainly find it difficult to give clear reasons. On the other hand, if someone asked you how to prove that these two lamas are not Buddhas, you could easily give a clear answer. You could say: they are not Buddhas because they need translators, they get sick, they are unable to come to their own decisions but have to rely on those of oracles, and sometimes they even get angry. How can a Buddha get angry, get sick, and so forth? Buddhas do not need oracles? So talking about this subject is completely meaningless, and only destroys peace and harmony in Buddhist circles."

Location: USA
Subject: His Holiness the Dalai Lama's Advice
May 31 2008 08:24 PM

To be fair, I think readers of Phayul should also be able to see other points of view on this complicated and sensitive matter so please post this message even if it is not in strict agreement with His Holiness so there can be at least some debate and people thinking for themselves. To read other points of view, there are several good websites:
Please allow you readers to see these so they can make up their own minds one way or another. Thank you.

Location: perched
Subject: why?
May 31 2008 07:44 PM

Why do some Tibetans worship Dholgyal?
-Because they believe the spirit brings wealth, because they are slaves to the "tradition" of their parents and don't use analysis to make their own right decisions, and because some of them are drawn to the illusion of power stemming from violence of the cult.

Why do westerners practice Dholgyal?
-Those practitioners are very misguided regarding the facts. The Dholgyal cult fulfills psychological needs they have like belonging to something bigger than themself, need for a "God" figure (Geshe Kelsang), etc....when all their psychological needs rely on the cult, it is too painful for them to face the facts that their practice is not even Buddhist, that they are not really oppressed, and that their cult is in collaboration with the Chinese occupation.

Solution: a good solution is to try to slowly educate the misguided westerners, as His Holiness and the pure Rinpoches are doing. Simultaneously, freedom of speech and religion should be practiced for all concerned. However, one point His Holiness did not mention is that the Dholgyal cult also poses a violent threat to his safety and the safety of those who stand against Dholgyal. For this reason, particularly in Dharamsala, I would request the Indian government to keep records of Dholgyal members and to keep them under the strictest surveillance. The Tibetan people definitely should not have to tolerate another incident like the murder of Geshe Lobsang.

In general, we should ascertain those Dholgyal cult members who may be educated into a correct view, and those who steadfastly adhere to violence and brutality. The former may require a gentle approach, while with the latter, security concerns will take the lead over educational efforts.

Location: India
Subject: Shugden is Shugden
May 31 2008 07:40 PM

To all my fellow Tibetans, I urge you to think a little more and stand up in front of a mirror.
People following Shugden were very wrong in protesting against HHDL and "hooking up" with the Chinese. It is very sad and heartbreaking that in this time when we need more solidarity and unity and brotherhood among the Tibetans all over the world, for the common interest of what is happening in Tibet, we have divisions.
Also it is very unfair of all the Tibetans that have been mocking the Shugden followers including HHDL. Just leave them alone. What is the big deal?
If they are praying to a spirit then let them. You already have like 5+ sects of Tibetan Buddhism, why not have one more? And their anger is also very understandable. How about someone asked you to consider not praying to Paden Lhamo?
The important thing is that we as a Tibetan have to stand up against CHINA. We have to put aside our differences and fight for freedom.

PS: Non-violence doesn't mean not doing anything (which Tibetans have been doing for past 50+ years), non-violence mean fighting and confronting everyday, within the limits of law.

Location: UK
Subject: Shugden practice
May 31 2008 04:57 PM

Unfortunately the Dalai Lama's statements about Shugden worship are not in accordance with the Dharma teachings. Your article states that HH Dalai Lama did a long and careful investigation - but when we look at the evidence that he found it is only signs in dreams and divinations - these are not acceptable to modern western people. The Western Shugden Society contains many well educated people who simply cannot accept the Dalai Lama's conclusions - both Tibetan and non-Tibetan well educated people who strongly disagree with the Dalai Lama's position here.
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