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Readers' Comments on "London bishop in Tibet row"
The Bishop of London is at the centre of an unholy row after he participated in a ceremony with the disputed 17th Karmapa during his visit to London....
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31 comment(s) found You are on page 1 of 4

Location: London
Subject: Karmapa
Sep 11 2005 03:22 AM

what is more important...?

a)That we find the right Karmapa, that we protect the Karma kagyu lineage, that we sustain Tibetan Buddhism itself, that we retain the exoteric form of the socio-cultural construct called the religion of buddhism itself...or

b) that we practice dharma and in our hearts irradiate the timeless love and compassion of the ego transcended awakened one....

If a) is more important please let us continue and intensify these furious disputations.

If b)then let us please be aware of how relatively unimportant this issue is.

I do not know who the real karmapa is, and even if i had a sense of who the right one was, why should i trust that feeling?
canada bhu  

Location: canada
Subject: kagyupa
Aug 18 2005 06:35 PM

I have only one fervant wish, is for western people to stop meddling in the affairs of our religion and culture.

You are only doing yourselves a big disservice, because sooner or later, tibetans lamas of all schools will grow tire of you and your disruptive interference and will shun you out.

I am a follower of the Kagyu school but I practice alone, because western people have invaded our traditions, they think they can study for a few years and then deserve to take on a title of lama and then they go out and give teachings to other westerners in the name of the kagyu schools and masters. What a joke. You guys think its fashionable, for us tibetans, it is a way of life from birth till death.
Chris Stefano  

Location: USA
Subject: Thaye Dorje
Aug 16 2005 03:58 AM

Well one Karmapa is free, recieved a complete buddhist education and has become active throughout the world. He is also non political.
He has almost 400 centers throughout the world with active practicioners, not just believers. Bhuddism is a knowledge religion not a belief system.

The other is surrounded by scandal, staying with the Gelugpa school who have no authority or legality in recognizing the Karmapa. He is under virtual house arrest with the Indian government limiting his movement. Nothing but findrances since his"escape".

Let the circumstances over time be self evident as to whom is having the easier time becoming active through out the world.

Follow Carolas example and not name calling but trust our own experience and judgement from what we see, not what we are told.

In the day and age of transparency and legality, medieval and nepotistic politics are only attractive to those who lose power and money by being modernizing.


Location: Holland
Subject: Friendship with the Dalai Lama?
Aug 15 2005 08:59 AM

Dear Casual Observer,
Maybe you are a little naive about the facts of the relationship between the Dalai Lama and the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa.
In fact The 16th Gyalwa Karmapa worked very hard to prevent HHDL from joining all schools of Tibetan Buddhist under one gelugpa banner--something that the HHDL tried very hard to accomplish during his first years in India. While always behaving in a correct and appropriate way with HHDL, the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa was never a friend of HHDL.
To some eyes it appears that HHDL is trying again to accomplish his old goal of uniting the schools under one banner, at least with the Kagyus. Where does Urgyen Trinley live? In a home of the HHDL? For this Kagyu this is a little too close to becoming a gelug for me.
casual observer  

Location: usa
Subject: His Holiness Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje - no doubt
Aug 15 2005 01:32 AM

His Holiness the Dalai Lama was a friend of the 16th Gyalwang Karmapa. HH the Dalai Lama was also friend and student of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. HH the Dalai Lama recognized Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Khyentse Yangsi Rinpoche as the incarnations of his friends. Why wouldn’t His Holiness the Dalai Lama not be able to recognize his own friends? You can say it's politics, but you can also say it's friends recognizing friends. Patience is good, but when it comes to finding the truth, common sense and research is just as important.

Kuenga Norbu  

Location: Kalimpong
Subject: Fake Karmapa UTD
Aug 14 2005 08:37 PM

Shut up followers of fake karmapas...DL is not the one and all to judge who is the real karmapa. Shamars have always recognised Karmapa's reincarnation & vice versa. The matter of DL getting involved in this issue is pure POLITICS. He would be better off negotiating the independence of Tibet rather than getting caught in Tai Situpa's gross & dirty politics.

Shame on all the foolish Tibetans!
Tibetan Buddhist  

Location: US
Subject: Urgyen Trinley Dorje, the 17th Karmapa
Aug 14 2005 02:16 AM

Urgyen Trinley Dorje is the 17th Karmapa. When Tsurphu (the main Karmapa Monastery in Tibet) monks and Tibetan people learned that he was recognized by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, they were thrilled and celebrated with great joy.

When the Karmapa found that he could not meet his teachers and study, he escaped into India. The Karmapa amazed every body who saw him. There were no doubt that he is a real.

Look what is Shamarpa's puppet doing?

What is Shamarpa saying?

First they said that Urgyen Trinley Dorje is Chinese Karmapa (because he was in Tibet under Chinese control).

When the 17th Karmapa escaped from into India, they suggested two Karmapas. Does not it reminds of the two "mothers" in King Solomon story?

Shamarpa's puppet is quoted to have said that "these are politics." Who is indulging in politics? Sharmapa and his puppet. Why don't shut up?

The 17th Karmapa is keeping golden silence and studying and practising Buddhism with holy Teachers like His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Those Westerners who have confused go and see for yourself. You will notice immediately the holiness of Urgyen Trinley Dorje and charlatan of Sharmapa's puppet.

Those who are following this controvery, how many stories Shamarpa gang changed? For every new development they have new lies and deceptions.

For the real Karmapa Urgyen Trinley Dorje, there is one version. The Truth.

We Tibetan Buddhists are so fortunate. All the holy lamas are praying and working together with His Holiness the Dalai Lama.


Location: Holland
Subject: 17th Gyalwa Karmapa
Aug 12 2005 11:40 AM

Who is the REAL Gyalwa Karmapa? Isn't it true that the Karmapa always identies himself? H.H. Karmapa Thaye Dorje did so at a very early age to a cousin of his from his 16th incarnation in front of the Jo Khang Gompa in Lhasa. This is in fact how H.E. Shamar Rinpoche was able to find him so easily.
Please read the attached interview with Urgyen trinle Rinpoche and note his own quote about if he knew he was the Karmapa.
*********Begin Quote*********
Source: The Observer, Sunday, April 29th, 2001
Escape from China, by the Buddhist boy god

Only one journalist has been told the full story of his flight from
Tibet. In his first full interview, the Karmapa Lama tells Luke
Harding about the danger he faced to win freedom

THE LHATOK region of eastern Tibet is about as remote as the country
gets. Only a few hardy nomads eke out a living here, tending their
yaks and wandering across a vast expanse of grassland enclosed by white
mountains. It was here 15 years ago that Ogyen Trinley Dorje was
born, a baby whose life would eventually cause the Chinese government a
great deal of embarrassment.

It was when he was eight that a search party arrived at his parents'
yak hair tent and solemnly announced that their mission was over.
They had found the Karmapa, the latest incarnation of one of Tibetan
Buddhism's most senior leaders.

Three suns promptly appeared in the sky. Before that, 'it would have
seemed disrespectful to imagine I might be the Karmapa,' he said

Dorje was bundled off to Tsurphu monastery, 30 miles from the
capital, Lhasa. The boy's status was swiftly recognized by the Chinese
government, which spent six years grooming him as a pliant rival to
the Dalai Lama. By late 1999, however, the Karmapa had had enough of
Beijing's script. He jumped off the monastery roof, got into a
Waiting car and was driven away. He managed to cross the border into Nepal
three days later. 'We didn't know what they would have done had we
been caught. Only they know that,' he said last night.

The Karmapa's dramatic escape - which echoed the Dalai Lama's flight
from Tibet 40 years earlier - captured the West's imagination and
made him a celebrity. But is also plunged the boy lama into a political
chess game. Shortly after greeting the Dalai Lama for the first time,
with blistered feet and cracked cheeks, the Karmapa found himself more
or less locked up in a monastery near Dharamsala, the scruffy hill
station in northern India which is home to the Tibetan government in exile.

'I sometimes wondered who had taken my freedom away,' he said. 'It
wasn't that much different from my previous state in Tibet, where I
was constantly watched.' The Indian security guards who lived downstairs
rarely allowed him out. Two months ago, however, India finally
granted him asylum, allowing him to give his first full interview with a

`He's beautiful' one slightly dotty American disciple gushed, shortly
before I was ushered into the boy's reception room, decorated with
Buddhist wall hangings and flickering candles. She was right. With
cherubic red cheeks and an open, expressive face the Karmapa looked
every inch an incarnation of Buddha, which his followers believe he

Had he as a young child had any idea who he was? `Very simply a human
being. I never thought of myself as the Karmapa,' he said."

Dorje was one of the youngest of nine children. His family was
nomadic, moving three times a year across an almost deserted landscape of wild flowers and mountains, herding yaks, goats and sheep. 'We lived like
native Americans,' he recalled. 'We survived on animal products such
as butter, meat and milk. It was an extremely isolated and natural
environment. Because of that there was a great degree of faith in
Buddhism. 'My family was neither wealth nor impoverished,' he added.
The only drawback to this romantically bleak and 'undisturbed' place
was winter. 'The winters were very cold, with biting wind,' the
Karmapa said.

His life was transformed after he was recognised as the seventeenth
Karmapa, the head of the powerful Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhism
Which emerged in the twelfth century. Chinese Communist Party officials
started courting him soon after he was installed in Tsurphu monastery
in 1992. The whisked him off on tours of China, showered him with
- his favorite was a remote controlled lorry - and introduced him to
Jiang Zemin, the Chinese president. 'The whole thing was presented to
me as if it was a vacation or tour,' he said. 'As a Tibetan, I had
thought of the Communist government as something that was negative,
which was harming us. But when I met Jiang Zemin at a function in
Tiananmen Square my impression of him was neutral. I didn't get the
impression of him as either good or bad.'

But the Karmapa, who had been recognised by the Dalai Lama, never
intended to be Beijing's protégé. He made it clear that he wanted to
go to India to meet several of his religious teachers who were in exile
there. The Chinese government refused, repeatedly. So after mulling
over an escape for a year, he and a handful of followers, including
his sister, Ngodup Palzom, set off across western Tibet in darkness
intent on reaching freedom. 'There were five or six checkpoints across the
road. But since we were driving at night the barriers were open. We
reached the first of two army camps. Someone shone a flashlight at
us, so I jumped out with two attendants and circumvented the camp by
walking over the hills. 'The others traveled through, unquestioned.
We rejoined them, and drove through the final camp unchallenged.'

They crossed Nepal on horseback, by helicopter and on foot to enter
India, where the Karmapa was virtually imprisoned by intelligence
agents at Gyuto monastery, near Dharamsala.

The Karmapa has made it clear he wants to travel to his sect's
principal monastery, Rumtek, in Sikkim. But so far the Indian
government has prevented him from going. China has never accepted
Sikkim as part of India, and it seems officials fear his presence
There would further offend Beijing. The Chinese government for which the
Karmapa's flight was a public relations disaster, issued a ludicrous
statement after his escape claiming that he had gone to India merely
to collect a black hat and religious instruments. He would be back soon,
they hinted.

But he told me: 'Having received the status of a refugee I don't plan
to return to Tibet unless the Dalai Lama does.' Meanwhile, he and his
sister still spend most of their time in the monastery. They have no
contact with their family left behind in Tibet.

The Karmapa, who has acquired a Pekinese dog, Dekyi, and a white
cockatoo, spends most of his days studying Buddhist texts and meeting
disciples, who include Richard Gere and Pierce Brosnan. He also
writes poetry, reads poems and paints. 'I'm exploring painting myself
without instruction,' he said. The Karmapa is clearly a serious and
exceptionally intelligent 15-year-old. Few can doubt his credentials
as a future Tibetan leader, although one dissident regent in his sect
has accused him of being a Chinese stooge, and appointed a rival Karmapa
as a potential successor. Yet few doubt he is likely to fill the
interregnum which would follow the 65-year-old Dalai Lama's death,
before the leader's next incarnation is discovered.

The interview over, we walk on to the Karmapa's roof terrace. The boy
clutching a well-behaved Dekyi, poses for photographs beneath a red,
white and blue Buddhist flag. The sun is shining but the sky is
thunderous. We ate far from Tibet, But the snow-covered mountains
above hint at what the Karmapa has left behind, probably forever.

*******End Quote******

Kuenga Norbu  

Location: Kalimpong
Subject: Yellow Haired Trouble Mongers
Aug 11 2005 11:37 PM

People like Carola from England are the real trouble creators in the world. They are cunning & also wealthy. With pounds and dollars they can even turn religious figures like HH DL into political elements.

So beware brothers & sisters of these Injis who are the cause of all the problems in Buddhism.


Location: England
Subject: London bishop
Aug 11 2005 08:43 PM

I am not surprised the London bishop has invited Thaye Dorje only. He is better known here in the West, for one reason mainly: the unbelievable popularity and marketing campaign, if you want to call it that, run by the Danish Lama Ole Nydhal (a former close student of HH the 16th Karmapa).

The popularity is made possible by the dedication (and money)of students of Buddhism, which allows Thaye Dorje to travel around and be seen, whilst HH Urgyen Trinley Dorje tends to be more static in India- maybe a disadvantage ( I personally would be delighted if he started travelling the west).

Therefore, it does not come as a surprise that the bishop might have been totally unaware of the controversy going on. Had he known, maybe he had invited both Karmapas, which I think would be a good solution to stop arguments in their tracks, so that we can all concentrate on what's more important- practising Dharma and let other people be.

I myself have studied in both the Kagyu and later the Gelug tradition. I got caught up in the controversy, but I would not dream of insulting Thaye Dorje supporters- each to their own.
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